+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 54
  1. #1
    Red Mage Extraordinaire
    Reputation Reputation
    Elemmire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    10,267
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Character Name:
    Elemmire
    Linkshell:
    TheNameless

    FFXIV Information: Anon

    White House Petitions

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...ivers/vZBQJ18R

    Petition to make Senators and Congressman wear the logos of their financial backers.

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...table/10078lWf

    Also this one is a good one. Especially since the progressive caucus' budget plan really is the best for our country right now and being VASTLY ignored.

    And finally,

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...ility/W43ShhqM

    Too Big to Jail petition. Something that DEFINITELY needs to be addressed.

    The first one I find amusing :P
    Last edited by Elemmire; April 3rd, 2013 at 11:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Buaidh no Bās
    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation
    Morcheeba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    G.W.N.
    Posts
    3,044
    FFXI Information: Retired

    FFXIV Information:
    Character Name:
    Morcheeba
    Gamer IDs

    Gamertag: BC Black Metal

    Re: White House Petitions

    Ha I'd totally back wearing their 'sponsors' logos!

  3. #3
    Happy..Happy..Happy
    Reputation Reputation Reputation
    Thelona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    In a vague undetermined state of existence
    Posts
    1,045
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Linkshell:
    Reverence

    FFXIV Information: Istory
    Character Name:
    Thelona Altepa
    Character Level:
    50 lnc
    Linkshell:
    BNYC

    Re: White House Petitions

    so our politicians have to walk around Washington dressed like this?




    I like it.



    FUCK that 49% tax rate tho, sorry, the idea that our government's irresponsibility with our tax dollars suddenly gives them the right to take half of what ANYONE earns no matter how much they make, is pretty insulting. And also completely ignores the negatives massive tax increases bring along with it.

    I don't care how much someone brings home, make up a number, don't care, the government shouldn't have any right to half of what you earn.

    I'm more for a flat tax with no exemptions or deductions, except for those in the lowest brackets. Seems alot more "fair" to me.
    Last edited by Thelona; April 3rd, 2013 at 06:25 PM.

  4. #4
    Talks With Tonberries
    Reputation Reputation
    Strid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    5,125
    FFXI Information: Anon

    FFXIV Information: Anon
    Gamer IDs

    Gamertag: XI Strid IX PSN ID: DK_Strid

    Re: White House Petitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelona View Post
    FUCK that 49% tax rate tho, sorry, the idea that our government's irresponsibility with our tax dollars suddenly gives them the right to take half of what ANYONE earns no matter how much they make, is pretty insulting. And also completely ignores the negatives massive tax increases bring along with it.

    I don't care how much someone brings home, make up a number, don't care, the government shouldn't have any right to half of what you earn.
    This... this, a million times this.

    I'm more for a flat tax with no exemptions or deductions, except for those in the lowest brackets. Seems alot more "fair" to me.
    Someone else "gets it." My day has been made.

    If anything "Greece savings" -esque happened here, ugh... there'd be little distinguishing the U.S. from the warring nations in the Middle East I'd imagine (and hope).
    Last edited by Strid; April 3rd, 2013 at 10:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Red Mage Extraordinaire
    Reputation Reputation
    Elemmire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    10,267
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Character Name:
    Elemmire
    Linkshell:
    TheNameless

    FFXIV Information: Anon

    Re: White House Petitions

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/bu...blem.html?_r=0

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...-10272011.html

    Might I also suggest reading "The Flat Tax: Why it Won't Work for America" by Scott Hicko. He's a freaking accountant and financial planner that works a security broker and real estate broker. He knows his shit more than anyone here (myself included) does >.>

    Btw, know what country used flat taxes in the past? USSR.

    http://www.propublica.org/article/fl...ve-they-worked

    Ya, no.. flat tax is a stupid idea and screws the poor more while giving the rich even MORE of a break than they currently get.

    So no, Flat Tax sounds fair on paper, but in practice it ignores a great deal of variables that screws over the middle and lower class even more while letting the rich get even more breaks.

  6. #6
    Buaidh no Bās
    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation
    Morcheeba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    G.W.N.
    Posts
    3,044
    FFXI Information: Retired

    FFXIV Information:
    Character Name:
    Morcheeba
    Gamer IDs

    Gamertag: BC Black Metal

    Re: White House Petitions

    Just going to put this right here..

    http://mashable.com/2013/03/02/wealth-inequality/

    Without getting too much into it, that 1% need to be taxed at higher rates as they're getting and will continue to get massive breaks unwarranted. Being a sly business person does not justify huge tax breaks, being wealthy does not justify huge tax breaks and/or being born into a wealthy and successful family that knows the tricks of the trade.

    Last edited by Morcheeba; April 4th, 2013 at 10:43 AM.

  7. #7
    I Reckon.
    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation
    Raesvelg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Delawhere?
    Posts
    3,648
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Linkshell:
    PhoenixPimps

    FFXIV Information: Istory
    Character Name:
    Raesvelg Helheim
    Gamer IDs

    PSN ID: Raesvelg Steam ID: Raesvelg

    Re: White House Petitions

    Wealth inequality vs income inequality is something people seem a bit confused on, as far as the taxation front goes.

    The wealthy have more money. Taxing their income will reduce the rate at which they acquire wealth, but it's not going to suddenly redistribute the amount of wealth that they already have, and may not even affect the rate at which it is acquired, given that the people in those top income brackets may just find themselves receiving more in the way of compensation from their jobs.

    You can attempt to increase taxes on wealth (capital gains tax, inheritance tax, and so on), but those taxes can be difficult to enforce. More to the point, if you start trying what are inherently confiscatory policies, people will just up and leave. They can afford to, after all, and it happens all the damn time. You may have a hard time imagining someone willing to cut out on their home country for the sake of money, but realize that's not what they're doing.

    They're cutting out on their home country for the sake of a metric fuckton of money.

    As for the "Fair vs Unfair" question...

    Yeah.

    "Fair" is a flat tax. Period. Full stop. The result of a flat tax might not seem "fair", since it will affect the poor more than the rich (unless you offer a significant single tax break claimable by anyone, in which case the system works rather effectively for the poor, kinda meh for the middle class, and taxes the rich at varying levels depending on how many tax dodges they used to employ. But I digress), but it's the only way to truly be "fair".

    Whoo, I just wrote a thousand word digression that I realized would be impossible to drag back on topic without going another thousand words.

    So.

    If we're willing to be UNfair, then we can accept that the poor arguably need help and the rich do not.

    The US Government took in 2.5 trillion dollars in revenues last year. What's terrifying is that we needed another $1.3 trillion to cover the programs the government had in place.

    We could tax the rich to cover that shortfall. We'd almost undoubtedly get significantly less money out of them than the proponents of confiscatory taxation would like to believe, but we could probably squeeze them for a fair amount more before that particular stone emigrated to Russia.

    But we're going to have to tackle the issue of government spending, particularly government spending on social programs, before too much longer. It's not that we need more money in order to meet our requirements, it's that we need to redefine what are requirements are, how that money is spent, and where it comes from.

    And if I see one of you suggest that we make up that money by taxing corporations, I swear to god I will go completely fucking apeshit.

    If the government is fucking up badly enough now, what makes you think that they wouldn't just scale up spending if we increased taxation?

    For fuck's sake, if we shaved a trillion dollars off of the federal budget, do you know where we'd be?

    2007.

    And yes, that does account for the various wars going on .

    Our defense spending now is higher than it was when we went to war in Iraq, not including the costs of our current operations.

    There are no such thing as "temporary spending measures".

    I read an article a while back, during Obama's first term, about how the budget hawks were evil people who were going to kill tens of thousands of children in third-world countries by cutting funding to programs fighting malaria.

    How much of a cut?

    Back to the levels in the 2008 budget. Not "in half", not "to the bone", but rather back to where it was just as the shit was hitting the fan, economically speaking.

    Yes, progressive taxation is a better way to handle things than a flat tax in terms of getting the necessary revenues in the least painful way for more vulnerable parties.

    But.

    We cannot tax our way out of the current situation. We have to cut spending.
    Last edited by Raesvelg; April 4th, 2013 at 12:48 PM.

  8. #8
    Happy..Happy..Happy
    Reputation Reputation Reputation
    Thelona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    In a vague undetermined state of existence
    Posts
    1,045
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Linkshell:
    Reverence

    FFXIV Information: Istory
    Character Name:
    Thelona Altepa
    Character Level:
    50 lnc
    Linkshell:
    BNYC

    Re: White House Petitions

    Thanks reas, i read these post on my phone at work and wanted to respond when i got home, but you made the argument for me, and much better then i could have.

    Also i'd like to point out

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemmire View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/bu...blem.html?_r=0

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...-10272011.html

    Might I also suggest reading "The Flat Tax: Why it Won't Work for America" by Scott Hicko. He's a freaking accountant and financial planner that works a security broker and real estate broker. He knows his shit more than anyone here (myself included) does >.>

    Btw, know what country used flat taxes in the past? USSR.

    http://www.propublica.org/article/fl...ve-they-worked

    Ya, no.. flat tax is a stupid idea and screws the poor more while giving the rich even MORE of a break than they currently get.

    So no, Flat Tax sounds fair on paper, but in practice it ignores a great deal of variables that screws over the middle and lower class even more while letting the rich get even more breaks.
    Elem, you COMPLETELY ignored half of what I said, so that you could tear down a strawman argument instead of what I ACTUALLY said.

    Yes, i know good and well that if you just flattened our rates as it stand, then people making 30,000 a year would end up paying lets just say 15% for purpose of the argument, then people making 30,000,000 with good accountants and tax lawyers would pay like 3% thats why i said
    flat tax with no exemptions or deductions, except for those in the lowest brackets.
    So that someone making 30,000 would pay 15% and someone making 30,000,000 would actually PAY 15%

    and what i don't get.

    Why do you have so much distrust in our government and what they do, yet are so quick to want to throw even more of OUR money at them to fix the problems. (well from your argument I assume you mean not YOUR money but other people's money >_>) but still...... what in our country's history makes you think that would actually work?

    I don't see why you have so little faith in our Intelligence agency's, Defense Department and what our politicians are doing behind closed doors, yet have so much faith that if they could take more money from the American people and that they would redistribute that in a fair and effective manner, and pay down our debt.

    Edit:: also, I wasn't making the argument that a flat tax would do a more effective job of paying debt and and supporting the poor then that progressive tax plan you linked, i was stating that just on principle I don't believe the government has a right to half someones money to take and redistribute just because they are super uber rich, its WRONG in my book, and I HATE seeing so many people hold up something so wrong and unjust as a punitively progressive tax rate as "Fairness". That's a pretty WARPED definition of fairness in my book.
    Last edited by Thelona; April 4th, 2013 at 06:01 PM.

  9. #9
    Buaidh no Bās
    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation
    Morcheeba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    G.W.N.
    Posts
    3,044
    FFXI Information: Retired

    FFXIV Information:
    Character Name:
    Morcheeba
    Gamer IDs

    Gamertag: BC Black Metal

    Re: White House Petitions

    Yeah a flat rate does not work for me thanks. 15% would allow me to bring home $25,500. Very few individuals could live any decent life on that kind of income. Especially if someone making $150k still brings home $145,500... more than enough to live a very comfy life/style. Nope... works not.

    I haven't held a job making over $34 annually... that's gross.. so the most I've ever technically -made- was about $33,5. My 'rent' doesn't help me come income tax time... and it accounts for $12k a year now and the cheapest rent I've ever paid was $8400 when I was 21 making closer to 30k....

    Working class need the breaks, cost of living and the ever increasing real estate economy (here at least) need to bare more consideration. My rent goes up ever single year.. there are no upgrades to my unit nor increases to our income. My hubby is now capped in his current position, and when I return to work (most of this was my #'s pre-motherhood) I'll be lucky to get a job that pays $15 p/hour.. but I usually don't settle, I know my value and HAVE to afford daycare right?! It's a necessity. Anyway.

    Yes spending needs to be looked at and closely. There is no accountability however, exactly how many of your/my officials have transparent budgets and spending?

    Edit - I get a feeling that spending will always be an issue, we've lost a lot over the years to cuts, music/creative arts/sports in schools for instance. If I'm right and that is the case... when the taxes inevitably go up again.. my measly capped income gets gouged to the point where I'm selling my body to feed my little girl and put her in gymnastics and those that can afford a little more off the top bitch about the tiny more coming off because they have to maybe rethink buying that luxurious chalet in Lake Louise or their 4th 70k vehicle...
    Last edited by Morcheeba; April 4th, 2013 at 08:10 PM.

  10. #10
    Mog's Kind Master
    Reputation
    Miros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    51
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Character Name:
    Miros
    Linkshell:
    Owmyface

    FFXIV Information: Anon
    Character Name:
    Miros Wikvaya (on Mi

    Re: White House Petitions

    So say we institute a flat tax, what do we do about FICA taxes? Would those be removed as well?

  11. #11
    Talks With Tonberries
    Reputation Reputation
    Strid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    5,125
    FFXI Information: Anon

    FFXIV Information: Anon
    Gamer IDs

    Gamertag: XI Strid IX PSN ID: DK_Strid

    Re: White House Petitions

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemmire View Post
    Might I also suggest reading "The Flat Tax: Why it Won't Work for America" by Scott Hicko. He's a freaking accountant and financial planner that works a security broker and real estate broker. He knows his shit more than anyone here (myself included) does >.>
    Raes made more sense in one post (above) than Scott Hicko could ever dream of. There are plenty of people, like Scott Hicko, with lofty job titles that do not deserve them, plenty of them... like the majority of the people that "control" our government's spending.

    Btw, know what country used flat taxes in the past? USSR.
    Irrelevant


    Ya, no.. flat tax is a stupid idea and screws the poor more while giving the rich even MORE of a break than they currently get.

    So no, Flat Tax sounds fair on paper, but in practice it ignores a great deal of variables that screws over the middle and lower class even more while letting the rich get even more breaks.
    In a fair event we would each pay the same amount or we wouldn't be here. You either chip in your share, or you get out. That's fair. What's not fair is me having to spend more than my share to cover the share of, hell, anyone else, no matter how wealthy I am (I'm not rich, I'm middle-class). I went to college, I have one degree in the bank (economics) and a second (geography) will be done in 2 units (which I'm currently on), I work my ass off doing that "little bit" extra and I'm punished for that by having to hand over more (of my) money because of it? No, that is not fair, it's not even close to fair.

    Go on and try to explain to me in what way it's "fair" that I should have to help out John Smith, a man who high-lifed H.S., knocked up his girlfriend senior year, dropped out to started working in a manufacturing plant - only to lose that job 10 years later to a machine; all of this because he didn't have the foresight to keep his fucking dick in his pants in H.S.

    Now, you may lay that "well people make mistakes" horse-shit on me, but I'll tell you, yeah, some people do and they pay for those mistakes, they should pay for them, and they should pay dearly for the rest of their life - these are life choices being made and them's the breaks. I had the same opportunities, I could have made the same mistakes, but I didn't. I considered my future, I did the right thing and now I'm having to "pitch in" extra for that? Get the hell out of here.

    It's probably the right thing to do, to help these people out, but no, it's anything but fair that we're required to.
    Last edited by Strid; April 4th, 2013 at 09:33 PM.

  12. #12
    Red Mage Extraordinaire
    Reputation Reputation
    Elemmire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    10,267
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Character Name:
    Elemmire
    Linkshell:
    TheNameless

    FFXIV Information: Anon

    Re: White House Petitions

    Here's the problem with a lot of you people who call for a flat tax, you think that 15% of say 1 million is as big a hit as 15% of 30,000. It's not. 15% of 30,000 is a HUGE hit in living standards compared to 15% of 1 million a year. You think of it way too shallowly and only about the income ignoring the other variables about society that would make it hurt the poorer FAR more than the rich ever even without any tax breaks/subsidies. Those kinda things need to be accounted for.

    And dismissing a guy cause "other people have titles they don't deserve" is a pretty shitty argument against him x.x

  13. #13
    Talks With Tonberries
    Reputation Reputation
    Strid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    5,125
    FFXI Information: Anon

    FFXIV Information: Anon
    Gamer IDs

    Gamertag: XI Strid IX PSN ID: DK_Strid

    Re: White House Petitions

    I don't think a single one of us is stupid enough to not realize that. That's a very basic thing to understand (that 15% of 100 is not the same as 15% of 1000). Even if there was any merit to it in this argument though, we're talking about what's fair and what's not. Your standard of living, in an argument about fairness, is of no concern to me. Even a flat tax is not fair, it's just more fair than the system we currently have. Like I stated in my post, fair would be for every dollar that I spend, everyone else has to pay that same dollar, regardless of income, regardless of their class, regardless of their standard of living, etc. After all, we're getting the same services from our government (if you're low-income you're likely getting more service generally) why should I be paying more?

    But again, a classic example of you ignoring the vast majority of what people say because it doesn't help your cause. What good do you actually think that does you?
    Last edited by Strid; April 4th, 2013 at 10:34 PM.

  14. #14
    Red Mage Extraordinaire
    Reputation Reputation
    Elemmire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    10,267
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Character Name:
    Elemmire
    Linkshell:
    TheNameless

    FFXIV Information: Anon

    Re: White House Petitions

    I'm not ignoring what you said, you just didn't specify you acknowledged that problem of a "flat tax" :\ a basic standard of living should be accounted. It wouldn't necessarily have luxuries, that's fine, but it does need to have basics to a healthy life for our people.

    And what people fail to understand is we are a society. I like Andrew Carnegie's Gospel of Wealth about how it's fine to become rich (or even ridiculously so in his case, being one of the 10 wealthiest people in history after accounting for inflation and differences of currency and whatnot), but ONCE you're rich you have an obligation to society around you. Because, face it, you didn't get anywhere in life entirely by yourself. Yes, you did have to work hard, but a lot of the necessary environmental opportunities had to be there.

    Let's look at real life examples. Starting with Bill Gates, how did he get rich? He definitely worked for it, he did some shady things, some very clever business deals (like splitting the stock prices in half to allow for newer investors and old investors to have more shares to their name), but look at his past. Part of how he was able to understand programming so well is because his school (which, mind you, he could only afford because he was born into a well to do family) was one of the VERY few in the country that had access to a computer for their students to use and learn about. That was key to him being able to succeed as he did. And, if you notice, a lot of it had to deal with where he was born, the family he was born into, and the opportunities that were around him.

    How about another example? With the recent death of Roger Ebert, let's look at his life. Part of what made him (and Oprah and others) a success is because Chicago was the ONLY city that had public broadcasting stations. That allowed them the means to become what he was and get as popular and well off. Same with Oprah.

    See, that's why it's fair, you already had advantages, even if you think life might have been hard for you (we almost all are guilty of doing this, over exaggerating the difficulties we go through when there are MANY others in life that have it way harder and not due to any fault of their own) and thus should help others around you. And your hypothetical instance is not necessarily the norm of the people who are poor or have troubles. That's the vast problem I have with so many that seem to also think "well my hard earned dollars are just going to druggies, criminals, etc" when that's entirely bullshit. Here, I like Cracked's article on this subject:

    http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-things...t-poor-people/

    It's educational/entertaining and they cite the sources you can view to your leisure. Those who are poor are not all (nor even the majority of them are) druggies or criminals or lazy bums or anything.

    And, hell, if you wanted it truly fair, it'd be more logical to go towards a socialist system or even communist as, on theory alone, those are purely about equal everything for everyone. Equal property ownage, equal pay, etc. The problem is, of course, that it ignores basic things about human like greed. But pure capitalism does the same thing. Pure capitalism ignores the human greed element and how far it can go to the point of pure capitalism would stifle creativity as monopolies would arise. That's why our country has never been a pure monopoly, it's been a mixed economy or a regulated capitalism.

    But no, there's a lot of good reasons that a flat tax is a terrible idea. And Raes is partially right. We do have a spending problem. But it's the discretionary spending that has issues more so than mandatory spending (like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid which are also generally taxed by specific taxes that go to them). I mean, Social Security does have a 2.5 Trillion Dollar surplus or that Medicare/Medicaid have only a 3% overhead which is even more efficient than all the corporations and businesses where their average overhead for such health coverage is 15-25%. But no, the big problem is what Raes also brought up, the "defense spending." Much of it bloated and wasted and all of it due to the lobbyists and bribery going on in Washington. But, while we do have a spending problem, taxes are also lower than they have been in decades. And as taxes have been getting cut, we've not seen ANY lasting growth to our economy over the last decade+. No, instead we've seen stagnation and worse. Trickle down economics does not work. Even Reagan realized this as he raised taxes, I believe, 15 times after his first round of tax cuts didn't give him what was needed to benefit people.

    On an aside, I think we should stop saying "Reagan did" or "Obama did" or "Clinton did" as much of their stuff might have been proposed by them or their administration, it's still congress of each era that pushed through the laws or twisted them into whatever useful or damaging state they are in. People place way too much emphasis on the president believing they are kings deciding tax and spending of the land when really they have no real power over deciding such things.

    Someone I love to watch on Youtube, CGPGrey, talks about this in his Debt Limit video


  15. #15
    Happy..Happy..Happy
    Reputation Reputation Reputation
    Thelona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    In a vague undetermined state of existence
    Posts
    1,045
    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Linkshell:
    Reverence

    FFXIV Information: Istory
    Character Name:
    Thelona Altepa
    Character Level:
    50 lnc
    Linkshell:
    BNYC

    Re: White House Petitions

    Why do you look at taxes and see it hurting the poor more so then the rich and say "well we have to make sure the rich gets screwed just as bad as the poor"? Why? Why not see that and say well maybe there should be exemptions for those who really need so that NOONE is getting screwed.

    This is my problem with progressives. You never seem to want to lift others up so they arn't experiencing pain. You just wanna knock others down A notch so everyones just equally fucked. You may not see it that way but it's the way the policy's turnout and it's right on the face of you're argument.

    And fuck that equal results society horseshit. As strid pointed out, people make decisions in their lives and those decisions have consequences.

    Explain to me why a guy who droped out of highschool had a kid at 17 and spent his early 20's smoking weed and partying deserves a equal standard of life, income, and equal stuff to the guy that devoted his life to his school work then his degree and then his career field and is now making awesome money after dedicating 10 plus years of his life to get where he is.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts