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  1. #16
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanien View Post
    Make the world better? Maybe I am the only one that thinks the world would be better knowing that people who make certain purchases or view certain websites ARE being tracked. If you have nothing to hide, what is the big deal? I like advertising that is directed towards me. I like that the government can track people who view certain websites and can be monitored. Oh no, Google knows I like pictures of cats! How dare they!

    And that Benjamin Franklin quote is pretty ridiculous. Freedom for the sake of freedom is a threat to social order. Ideology is nice, but isn't realistic.
    That's nice you don't have a problem with it, but others might not care to be monitored. And you might go "BUT SECURITY" ya and? There's a reason that search and seizures and such were supposed to require a warrant. Because you're not supposed to treat the people as a whole guilty before any proof of such actions. And privacy is something (to some degrees) that's protected under our Bill of Rights (or supposed to be, but being consistently killed). If you're trying to invade on rights because of "Security" you're not even being realistic yourself. Compare the total number of people of the country to those who are criminals (and I mean the "violent crimes"). Statistically speaking? Criminals are a TINY minority.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/country/...ates/cri-crime

    Total Crimes ~ 11,877,218
    US population ~ 313,914,040

    That's roughly 3.8% (rounding UP) of our population that's a threat. And note, that crime data is fairly old. And crime rates have, mostly, gone down over the years.

    That's not even scientifically reasonable as to why you should invade on EVERYONE'S rights for the idea of security.
    Last edited by Elemmire; March 25th, 2013 at 01:33 PM.


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  2. #17
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Following your data would allow me to infer that as privacy is taken away, crime rates have gone down.
    Last edited by Lanien; March 25th, 2013 at 02:11 PM.

  3. #18
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemmire View Post
    Simple question. Are you willing to try and even bring change? If no, you're a defeatist. If yes, your posts don't match that >.>
    You see, this is exactly my problem with you on these types of topics. Hopefully this will help you (because I do enjoy you, just not on these topics), but really, it's my last attempt at that.

    Just because I said writing a senator or congressman is a waste of time doesn't mean a person shouldn't do something else instead. The entire point was lost on you, that I said do something else, something productive, and fruitful; what was that all for? What part of that made you think I was telling someone to completely give up a dream/goal? You see what I'm talking about with you here? I just... I don't know how to talk to people like you about such as this because you don't listen to what you don't want to hear.
    Last edited by Strid; March 25th, 2013 at 08:33 PM.

  4. #19
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanien View Post
    Following your data would allow me to infer that as privacy is taken away, crime rates have gone down.
    Ah but that would be incorrect because there are many variables that could account for crime rates going down such as education, economy, entertainment, or various other things. Correlation is not causation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strid View Post
    You see, this is exactly my problem with you on these types of topics. Hopefully this will help you (because I do enjoy you, just not on these topics), but really, it's my last attempt at that.

    Just because I said writing a senator or congressman is a waste of time doesn't mean a person shouldn't do something else instead. The entire point was lost on you, that I said do something else, something productive, and fruitful; what was that all for? What part of that made you think I was telling someone to completely give up a dream/goal? You see what I'm talking about with you here? I just... I don't know how to talk to people like you about such as this because you don't listen to what you don't want to hear.
    See, then I dunno what you're calling to do x.x I have plenty of energy and drive to do many things while writing my congressman/senator if I have a problem with a law as well as educating others of the problem and ya. I'm not very good at leading people and I don't really want to go to full on protest mode (and certainly don't want violence) so I'm not sure how many other options that would be necessary to help bring change that you could be getting at o.o


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  5. #20
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    And one of those variables is the amount of privacy. Take the tinfoil hat off. If you have nothing to hide, who cares what anyone knows?

  6. #21
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanien View Post
    And one of those variables is the amount of privacy. Take the tinfoil hat off. If you have nothing to hide, who cares what anyone knows?
    I care because it's none of their business. It might not be anything important or anything special or anything bad, but it doesn't mean they have a right to invade my privacy. Especially under the bullshit of "security."

    Hell, you could argue we need more security cause of 9/11 (when a ton of our rights started being taken away), but even that is bullshit. Because even BEFORE the increased invasion of our privacy we had the tools to counter terrorists. We KNEW 9/11 was going to happen, it happened because Bush Administration failed to act

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/op...-warnings.html

    So ya, I'd say that's a pretty strong case we don't need MORE of our privacy invaded. Considering even before the privacy invasion got huge (this was before Google was really big too, remember) we knew ahead of time of this horrible attack. So that variable might not be as big an influence (if at all) like you're claiming. The very notion we need more security has been bs for over a decade -_- why are you so ok with other's privacy being invaded? Why are you ok with treating people like criminals before anything wrong is even done? There's nothing right about that. The vast majority of people are actually perfectly good people not trying to harm anyone. There's no reason to invade their privacy. Hell, are you ok with the TSA invasive scanners and vast databases holding everyone's body images from airports? I am certainly not. It's just wrong. They have no real need for such things.
    Last edited by Elemmire; March 26th, 2013 at 09:15 AM.


    "In gaming there are two types of people. Those who like to kill other people, and those who like to kill the environment.. and if you combine those two people you get the Republican Party" - Jay Mohr at Blizzcon 2010
    "Apparently studies have shown that most people can't come up with the opposites of these words in less than 30 seconds: 1. Always 2. Coming 3. From 4. Take 5. Me 6. Down" - Random YouTuber

  7. #22
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Your reasoning seems very childish to me. I don't deny the fact that a majority of the people in this country are good people. But I also agree that if one life is saved, one crime is prevented, than that is enough for me to know that if I go to a website about making bombs, it will send up a red flag. Do you honestly think there is some dude sitting there at the CIA combing through a database saying "I wonder what Elemmire is doing today?" and just goes through your shit? Unless you are doing something wrong, no one will ever see what is stored for you. But it seems you'd rather take the "That's none of your beeswax!" child approach.

    I am perfectly fine with TSA body scanners even though their software is completely changed from what it used to be and doesn't show what it used to. Flying isn't a right, it's a privilege. You don't like their rules, tough shit. The only problem I have with the TSA is they are poorly run for the funds they are provided.

    And what the hell does personal privacy and preventing 9/11 have anything to do with each other? I highly doubt Osama was Googleing "How to blow up the WTC" from inside the US.
    Last edited by Lanien; March 26th, 2013 at 09:49 AM.

  8. #23
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Yup, that's pretty much where I stand with it all. When the TSA controversy first showed it's nasty little face I backed it, because flying IS a privilege, and if you want to use such a method then you should shut up and do what is expected of you, or change your plans to a road trip.

    I've been asking for -years- why the hell no red flags go up when people are accessing information as to the makings behind bombs, or purchasing of illegal arms... or legal but highly dangerous etc. These things should be monitored, and whether it's plain curiosity, a school essay or the next unabomber, these types of searches should be compiled and monitored... closely. As it becomes more easily accessible to the masses in general, so should locating potential criminals.

    I'm unsure how your laws differ from ours in this next case, but when entering into a contact here (say during the purchase of a television or new cell contract etc), companies are required to keep my personal information on lock down, and the only time they can release it is if they are required by officials for investigatory purposes, therefore they would need a warrant or appropriate documentation and reasoning to warrant accessing that information, but really.. who cares whether I bought a $700 tv right? Expect maybe the RCA, for auditing purposes...

    I don't care that they'd have access of they really wanted to, there is absolutely nothing for me to fear.

    In the case Raes brings up, I can't think of the negatives of being part of a database when having spent several years in psychiatric care due to psychotic episodes etc... except of course if we were in the 1950's and people could easily be locked away in mental institutions against their will and left to rot etc.

    You guys have access to see what offenders live in your neighborhoods, potential pedophiles... we don't, do you know how I wish that were different?! I personally think those types should be made easily accessible. Sorry, somewhat off topic.

    Ultimately, until there is a cause for concern, I'm not going to concern myself. I don't want to live my life a paranoid conspiracy theorist, especially if it will have no effect on me or my family.

  9. #24
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    I'm unsure how your laws differ from ours in this next case, but when entering into a contact here (say during the purchase of a television or new cell contract etc), companies are required to keep my personal information on lock down, and the only time they can release it is if they are required by officials for investigatory purposes, therefore they would need a warrant or appropriate documentation and reasoning to warrant accessing that information, but really.. who cares whether I bought a $700 tv right? Expect maybe the RCA, for auditing purposes...
    Mostly they just have to tell you that they're going to use your data if they intend to do so, and whether or not they intend to share that data with others.

    Which is not to say that there aren't some shady characters out there trying to trick people into agreements they didn't read, or groups that just outright lie and share the information anyway, but you'll get that pretty much anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    I don't care that they'd have access of they really wanted to, there is absolutely nothing for me to fear.
    Except for the fact that someone unrelated could, for example, get a list of everyone who recently dropped a lot of money on something specific. And then sell that information to someone else. Someone who might decide that the people on that list would make excellent targets for some kind of theft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcheeba View Post
    In the case Raes brings up, I can't think of the negatives of being part of a database when having spent several years in psychiatric care due to psychotic episodes etc... except of course if we were in the 1950's and people could easily be locked away in mental institutions against their will and left to rot etc.
    Well, let's look at this analytically.

    Who would go in the database? Set the threshold too high (committed to a mental institution for violent delusions and psychoses), and 99.99% of people would slip through, including the vast majority of the spree killers the hypothetical database would be intended to catch.

    But let's assume you set the bar high. The database will fairly rapidly prove to be of distinctly limited use; as mentioned, very few spree killers ever really qualified as dangerously insane prior to their rampage. You get a few people who had sought treatment privately but weren't considered sufficiently "insane" to be in the database decide to gun down everyone at the local McDonalds and you can be pretty damned sure that the threshold for inclusion in the database would change. Rapidly.

    Ultimately, you'd likely see the bar being set fairly low, and the government tracking the individuals in it. Maybe not to automatically disqualify the guy who sees his doctor about depression every month, but just to keep an eye on him and maybe stop by his house if he starts buying a lot of guns suddenly.

    Seems innocuous enough, no?

    Except that the instant you've got a list of people who are effectively being billed as "dangerous" to the public, you've abruptly got a very convenient scapegoat. If you've got a registry of the mentally ill, and someone in it winds up buying a pistol, or making a bomb, and killing a lot of people, what do you suppose will happen to everyone else on that list?

    Yep.

    Restrictions would tighten. And each time someone new slipped through the cracks, restrictions would tighten again.

    Who knows? Maybe after a while they'd start making us all wear silver ribbons tied around our arms so we'd be easily recognizable in crowds. -.-

    Godwin'd, bitches.

    But seriously, if you don't think that spiral of restriction is a plausible thing, bear in mind that that's exactly what happened in the UK with gun control. Every time something new happened, they'd outlaw whatever they felt was necessary to prevent it from happening again.

  10. #25
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    See, a few of you seem to believe we should have these invasive policies to protect people, I believe that there are other means to prevent future attackers. Hell, I'd rather make it mandatory or at least more a social norm that people see a psychiatrist often the same way we are to see a doctor for our body. I don't get why people are so obsessed with the physical health care of people, but the mental health care goes ignored (at least in this country). I believe we could educate, improve our economy, and do so many other things to lessen the likelihood of someone wanting to go on a shooting spree or bomb someone or do violence to others.

    And Morcheeba, in the US there is a freedom that is protected by the law called "Freedom of movement." That's why many have issue with the TSA. It's a form of restricting that freedom of movement and one of the big criticisms. Because you're being denied your right to travel because you don't want to be invasively patted down.. especially considering how many perverts I've met working for the TSA -_-maybe I've just been unlucky, but it seems a great deal get joy outta having power over people and patting people down in ways that aren't even potentially necessary. Especially when there are these lists that are "no fly" lists that they never really explain how or why you get on.

    For example of some of their bullshit in the name of security:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1075721

    http://ivn.us/2013/02/19/the-tsa-and...-transparency/

    you people give into fear way too easily as far as I'm concerned. :| So what if someone does look up a bomb website? It doesn't mean they are going to get a bomb. You're treating them guilty before anything happens. In this country it's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Not the reverse. Yet that happens way too much. It's frustrating.


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  11. #26
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemmire View Post
    See, then I dunno what you're calling to do x.x I have plenty of energy and drive to do many things while writing my congressman/senator if I have a problem with a law as well as educating others of the problem and ya. I'm not very good at leading people and I don't really want to go to full on protest mode (and certainly don't want violence) so I'm not sure how many other options that would be necessary to help bring change that you could be getting at o.o
    Right, and that's all well and good, but it's not what you said to begin with. You basically disregarded every. single. bit. of what I said and put words into my typing fingers. It's OK to not understand where someone is going with something, that's fine, ask them, but don't just assume (either for good or bad) to know what they mean. It'll make you a lot less frustrating of a person to deal with, I guarantee that.

    And again I'm going to say; your privacy in a modern society is what you make it. If you're worried about da gubment comin' to take yr baby er yer freedomz, -for the most part- you're either tin-foiling it up, or doing questionable things. To touch on something Raes said a while back about fertilizer, someone inside a city has all the right in the world ordering 30 5 lb. bags of fertilizer, but as opposed to a rural person ordering 30 5lb. bags, it's extremely questionable. The government is not going to go after a rural area living farmer purchasing fertilizer at that rate, but I'd say it necessary as hell to find out why a person inside of, say, NYC needs a pallet of 30 5lb. bags of fertilizer. And let's say they do go after the inner city dweller to see what's up, so long as they're not breaking the law, they've got nothing to worry about. That said, it's not considering Barney Fife shows up just lookin' to bust someone because Andy has been on his ass all day to "do something." I'll admit that can happen, but it's far, far from common that it even happens, let alone stands against anyone for any significant damage.

    What bothers me the most in this area is the use of drones in our nation. Drones are for combat areas and combat situations that may arise in peaceful areas. They have no place in our skies right now, none, especially when we can't even afford to properly balance our checkbook. Personally, if I want to blame anyone for a lack of privacy in the U.S., I'll blame the citizens who are so uneducated and fickle that they let fear guide them into, say, supporting George W. Bush in going to war on Iraq. Instead of fearing that extremist would come back and strike again, we should have calmed down, and rationally thought that out; now here we are, many family tragedies later (both here and there), more in debt than ever, with absolutely nothing to show for it (save a couple of dead bad guys who will be replaced by other bad guys), but hey, we're not 'fraid anymore, right?
    Last edited by Strid; March 26th, 2013 at 03:22 PM.

  12. #27
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemmire View Post
    See, a few of you seem to believe we should have these invasive policies to protect people, I believe that there are other means to prevent future attackers. Hell, I'd rather make it mandatory or at least more a social norm that people see a psychiatrist often the same way we are to see a doctor for our body. I don't get why people are so obsessed with the physical health care of people, but the mental health care goes ignored (at least in this country). I believe we could educate, improve our economy, and do so many other things to lessen the likelihood of someone wanting to go on a shooting spree or bomb someone or do violence to others.

    And Morcheeba, in the US there is a freedom that is protected by the law called "Freedom of movement." That's why many have issue with the TSA. It's a form of restricting that freedom of movement and one of the big criticisms. Because you're being denied your right to travel because you don't want to be invasively patted down.. especially considering how many perverts I've met working for the TSA -_-maybe I've just been unlucky, but it seems a great deal get joy outta having power over people and patting people down in ways that aren't even potentially necessary. Especially when there are these lists that are "no fly" lists that they never really explain how or why you get on.

    For example of some of their bullshit in the name of security:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1075721

    http://ivn.us/2013/02/19/the-tsa-and...-transparency/

    you people give into fear way too easily as far as I'm concerned. :| So what if someone does look up a bomb website? It doesn't mean they are going to get a bomb. You're treating them guilty before anything happens. In this country it's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Not the reverse. Yet that happens way too much. It's frustrating.
    It has nothing to do with giving in to fear except as an afterthought. I do not give a shit what the government has on me as an honest member of society, and no one who also falls into that category should. You are not guilty until proven innocent because even if you are found to be accessing things you shouldn't be, you still have other rights that protect you. It's not a "Google Bomb, Go to Jail, Do not Pass Go, Do not Collect $200." You are absolutely paranoid that you feel that having a database on your activities is some sort of tool to bypass all your actual rights.

    And blaming the TSA for enforcing laws that have been on the books since the 1970s in regards to flight restrictions is pretty hilarious. Do you know that giving permission for body searches is a rule created by the airlines before the TSA even existed, and that you had to agree to it in order to use their services? It was and might even still be printed on the tickets in fine print. Not to mention that the airspace over the US under the USC is regulated by the Federal Government and has been that way since yes, before the TSA existed. Sounds like you just had a handsy guard and are now blaming an entire organization for his/her actions. Do you really think those guards would be different if they worked directly for the airport instead of the TSA? Doubtful.

  13. #28
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raesvelg View Post
    Words that make sense

    See, where my feelings differ are that although it's possible should someone on the 'watch' list fall into dangerous behaviour for the public or him/her self, I don't necessarily believe it would create much rift in the other peoples lives. Closer monitoring, and perhaps touching base should anyone's actions/purchases etc seem to start following any patterns. I don't think that should be a problem. What sucks is yes, I understand, when living a 'normal' life one should not have to worry about being harassed.. but when you're not quote on quote normal and beyond that you start delving into sensitive subjects being someone of your 'mental capacity', you should be watched. Honestly, I look at it this way, if a grown adult is exhibiting signs that they could/may do harm to themselves or others, family or friends that are keen to this behaviour will usually start asking questions or seeking help. If these people do not have anyone close to monitor, and they're looking up 'how to's' online and compiling a nice little arsenal.. we need a back up..? Ya.

    No matter how you cut it, someONE is going to be pissy about how much attention they're getting. But I was raised to believe if I didn't want the attention from cops, or negative attention in general, I wasn't to do anything that brought that on myself (ie; walk around with a gigantic pot leaf necklace on). If we all know researching methods of body disposal in the fewest steps is going to be flagged and set against our names... and should that happen enough times we may eventually be questioned about our curiosities.. we can choose to not educate ourselves on those topics.. or suck it up when someone starts asking questions.

    If the major concern is that people have been imprisoned being completely innocent of a crime, that's another issue entirely and one should not weight into the use of another potential flag system

    @ Ele, in regards to the Freedom of Movement, you guys are free to move from state to state by many means. You can drive, you can take a bus, you could walk, or bike it or hitchhike. But if you want to board a plane with hundreds of other passengers you have to meet the requirements set by those corps (and I suppose your government) especially after past events. If you want to fly over seas, or to another country, you require a passport. If you want to drive or rent a vehicle you need to show proof of insurance and your license. These are all privileges not rights. No one is stopping you from traveling but you.

    Trust me, I'm not a meek chick and there are more times than I can recall that I've nearly got into a fist fight with a man because I was touched (how I deem) inappropriately. I'm not cool with people I don't know putting their hands on me, even if just on my shoulder... it's my personal space that's being invaded. That said, (and I've never been on a flight fyi), knowing I would be subjecting myself to frisks (been to many a concert with many an aggressive frisk), I just wouldn't be shy about voicing whether something was inappropriate and/or taking steps to file an official report and speak to higher up regarding that particular staff member. Not that I think much would come of it, but I have no issues kicking up a stink and I'd be looking for a free flight on their wallet etc. What else can you do?

    I went to NFLD 6 years ago.. I drove, 22 hours on land, 16 + hours on a ferry.. it was a long trip but I didn't want to fly.
    Last edited by Morcheeba; March 26th, 2013 at 05:05 PM.

  14. #29
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    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2970691.html

    more news about government invading privacy... I swear they don't trust any of us. Why should we trust the government that doesn't trust us? Bah...

    Also, anyone remember this bullshit from the NSA?

    Last edited by Elemmire; March 28th, 2013 at 11:22 AM.


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  15. #30
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    FFXI Information: Quetzalcoatl
    Character Name:
    Elemmire
    Linkshell:
    TheNameless

    FFXIV Information: Anon

    Re: More Privacy Concerns...

    Bumping this with MORE privacy invasion from our government, yay -_-

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3055988.html


    "In gaming there are two types of people. Those who like to kill other people, and those who like to kill the environment.. and if you combine those two people you get the Republican Party" - Jay Mohr at Blizzcon 2010
    "Apparently studies have shown that most people can't come up with the opposites of these words in less than 30 seconds: 1. Always 2. Coming 3. From 4. Take 5. Me 6. Down" - Random YouTuber

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